Talk by Stephen Gray on the book Cannabis and Spirituality: An Explorer’s Guide to an Ancient Plant Spirit Ally. Info at CannabisAndSpirituality.com
Explores the use of cannabis in a wide range of spiritual practices, including meditation, yoga, chanting, visualization, shamanism, group ceremonies, work with other entheogens, and as a creative aid. Book includes authors Kathleen Harrison, Joan Bello, Hamilton Souther, Steven Hager, Chris Bennett, Dee Dussault, Jeremy Wolff, and Roger Christie.
Also available on Enlightened Society Podcast
Filmed in Portland, OR. 2017.
I have 20 minutes, so I'll complete the rest of my personal introduction by telling you that I live in Vancouver British Columbia and I've been involved with pSychedelic [slash] entheogens for many years in one way or another and but five years ago As part of this conference that Tom just mentioned I was having a conversation with Kathleen Harrison who some of you may know as the former wife of terence McKenna? one of the great spokespeople for the pSychedelics until he died in 2002 or so Mm. Maybe anyway and I Told Kathleen that I thought Cannabis was getting short [shrift] [as] a spiritual medicine. That's the purpose of this conference is to Share information educate people on on the sort of wise effective responsible environmentally and culturally sustainable use of these medicines like psilocybin and ayahuasca and in peyote [and] others and So I mentioned the Kathleen. Oh yes, if more people would come and join me I'd be happy [about] that and like because I can't move because Jeremy's [gots] me on film here, so It'd be nice [to] be more intimate with you guys, but anyway, whatever whatever [you're] come. How he was [oh] there you go on our first date even And I'm you drink later yeah um so I was having a conversation with Kathleen Harrison and and I said Something about [that] to her that I did you know cannabis wasn't getting the attention it deserves And needs as a spiritual medicine and she said well I think I'd be a really important book and if you put it together, I'll contribute to it well I know her some of her writing She's never written a brit, but she's written several um essays [in] other people's books and so on and she's a beautiful writer She's a really insightful person deep wisdom person, and so that was kind of the trigger to go ahead with that project so that was five years ago, I Collected a total of 18 contributors to the book including myself. I've contributed a couple chapters here in I Got really lucky with my one of my favorite publishers in her traditions Park street press Bear and company And came out in December, and so the purpose of the broke it makes ten trees And I guess is to redress this issue you know because for starters I Like to point out as does one [of] the contributors to the book that Cannabis truly does have an ancient and widespread history of spiritual use on this planet some of you may be aware of that maybe not for starters [the] lineage the clan lineage that cannabis is part over comes from the [kin] of [a] Ca I don't know if you know how to pronounce that word I always pronounce of cannabase Ea lineage is estimated to be between 30 and 90 million years old on this planet So it's an old old lineage and plant it's fairly Obvious that cannabis has [been] deeply intertwined with human affairs as Long as anyone could even imagine let alone you know the actual evidence that we have we know it goes back probably about 10,000 years or so in Chinese culture in fact researchers think that it might even have originated in Northeastern China [we] know for example that? There are findings from the grave sites of shamans from the neolithic, era. It's just about 7,500 years ago with Cannabis residue So it was clear [that] it's been used Shamanic Li for a very long time and it just stands to reason that it would have been even far longer before the quote dawn of civilization because It was everywhere it grows easily as you know And people were using it for everything they're using it for you know building materials clothing [netting] all Kinds of medicines ETc Etc Oil you know for cooking for cosmetics for painting whatever you know? So it seems rather obvious so that people would find out that you could get high from it, too and if you found that out then at least some of the people would find out that if you sort of Terence McKenna used to like to say sit down shut up and pay attention then Then you might [find] which is again where the book comes in that [there's] some deep spiritual awakenings that can happen with the use of Cannabis So the purpose of the book again was to acknowledge that for starters that This is what one [of] our contributors to the book called the people's pSychedelic. I started using the term of people's plant It's a little less dramatic than calling it the people psychedelic although I I do think that it belongs in the Pantheon of antigenic substances especially when it's used carefully and sometimes you know might require larger doses sometimes but When it's used very very skillfully and on that point. I'd like to [say] that When it is really understood well and oh yeah, I'm going to stop there hold that thought for a second I just want to make a little disclaimer for [a] moment. I don't know What this audience is I mean? I don't know what your experience is and obviously we don't have time to find out so You know maybe you've had maybe any one of you Maybe a bunch of you've had quite a lot [of] experience with Cannabis in some sort of quote spiritual way So I just want to say I hope I'm not talking obvious or down to anybody in any way. I'm just Telling you what I think I understand and have learned and so on so you're [still] Canadian I Haven't [plants] absolutely Well, I wish there was more time because then I could tell you some you know Canadian jokes [so] yeah like the new Yorker likes to make fun of Canadians occasionally you know they have those one panel cartoons and one of my favorites [of] The Caption is the Canadian Mafia and it's a guy tied to a chair and two guys standing over them in black suits with slicked back hair and ties and everything and They're both looking really tough, but the one guy says to the guy in the chair he says Listen you better start talking or really here is going to say please is Canadian laughs eeeh anyway, that's enough back out of here So excuse me back to the story as it were It has this ancient widespread lineage of spiritual use it has the potential? not only to assist in our spiritual awakening, but to actually have a Significant powerful effect in our spiritual awaking, I truly believe that and I don't just [believe] it because on one level I think that belief plus two dollars will get you a cup of coffee [it] has to come from experience and although I don't make dramatic claims about my own personal experience. I've certainly had glimpses of What I would consider to be deep presence with Cannabis and I compare that in a sense to other experiences I've had with the so-called major antigen, so I know that Cannabis can do that, too. You know I? Like many of us. I've had moments of feeling like feeling a distinct sense of connecting to something that's you know much, bigger, or when you might say even unconditionally true and I've had moments of settling into What you might call the peace that passes [all] understanding if you know that old phrase attributed to Jesus? I think they said passive, but that's okay. That was the king James version I guess excuse me [Em] so I'm going to jump ahead quickly because we're really short on time here [I] usually make this talk about 45 minutes to an hour and then we open it up for questions so There's a physiological or which might call a biochemical Rationale for how this works or explanation when I'll just give you the really really condensed version tonight John Bello is one of the contributors to the book she talks about how when you smoke Cannabis or vaporize at Oral ingestion being different of [course] because it can take up to two hours to reach full effect But if you smell it or vaporize it as you know I'm sure the effects are pretty much immediate and one of the things that I don't know if you've noticed or not I didn't really pay much attention to it until John pointed it out is there's an increase in your heart rate at the beginning and what that's doing is pumping an increased supply of Rich freshly oxygenated blood Into the whole organism and as part of that And this is like a save it and you know the claw a comic book version here, basically there's an expansion of the Musculature which he calls the oppositional muscles allowing breath to go more deeply into the lungs which again comes more blood into the system So [that] the whole system becomes what again, [John] Bello calls result the condition is considered described as a charged equilibrium a Number of the researchers for talking about Cannabis such as dr. Robert Melamine use also the term homeo creating a condition of homeostatic balance I mean, [I] have to cut that one short It's a very bare-bones description of that effect so that if you look if we can go from there The next question in my mind at least is okay So then what do you do with that? The simplest way of condensing that down into a phrase or a couple of words is that [canape] Cannabis amplifies, okay? That's the sort of the most layperson way you can talk about it it amplifies So then what do you do with that? It didn't say it amplifies, or it energizes? And that's where if you're talking about Cannabis as a spiritual medicine or a spiritual ally intention right Having an intention having some discipline having some focus For what you want the plant to do one of the contributors to the book Steve Dyer says It's really important to him to know what he wants [to] use the plant for because it will energize Whatever your intention is and if I had longer what I would say about that, too Is that that can also [be] why cannabis is harmful for some people and I'm sure you know that too people become heavily Dependent upon it. I'm hesitant to use the word addicted because it's physiologically barely addictive I think but it can be intensely psychologically addictive or dependency inducing so if your intention is unconscious, or if it's to escape of weight Feeling Avoid Connection Kathleen Harrison and her chapter talks about how she [is] seeing a lot of people tending to be younger people tending to be al Who gets so cozy with the Cannabis space they get into they want to do it all the time and they don't want to come? Out [of] it and to what she calls the daylight world of relationship and responsibility so if [you're] in tension at whatever level of Consciousness or unconsciousness is to Escape avoid not take responsibility [for] Yourself, Etc, ETc, Etc Cannabis can go there [too] because it's an it's a scent in that sense neutral. It's very gracious plant you know but if your intention is to be present to Wake up to heal, so to speak the amplification process or capability of the plant can Deepen Or strengthen that intention as well I'm sure many of you. If not most of you if not all of you understand that principle so Again, this is the condensed talk so I'm going to move right on to if that's true that it has this sort of physiological function and Then [intention] allows you to direct that amplification at amplified energy, then what do you do with that? Well in the book [I] and some of the other contributors talked about how You can make use of Cannabis and all your spiritual practices. I know all that is quite accurate but the way I like to talk about it is that you could apply the use of Cannabis in conjunction with meditation and a number of other spiritual practices that range from essentially formless meditation or presence to increasing degrees of form or activity or action in your practice, so Simply just sitting and being present the aforementioned sit down shut [up] and pay attention Admonition is about as formless as you can get [Ganesh] baba crazy wisdom Indian Guru once said he had two rules for smoking Cannabis one is sit up straight with your spine aligned so that the energy can move and Secondly dedicate your smoking to shiva. That was his deity so but for us it could be anything So, but that may it be a little too loose So [to] speak for a lot of people because Cannabis as an amplifier can also amplify Speed it can also amplify thought [processes] most of us probably know as well right you know get into the busy mind thing or you think you're having them the best creative thought ever and you actually might be but It's also The Tricky part about the [fob] stuff is that that you know [I] like to refer to British teachings I was involved in Tibetan buddhism for a long time [the] the way British teachings talk about the thinking process. Is that it's our primary strategy for avoiding reality Or evading the non-existence of the illusionary self the ego You know that sees itself as separate for everything and [just] you know figures like if you have to struggle your way through the world To protect yourself all the time and so on and so on [is] it this is the ink cloud that we use to obscure that reality is our thinking you know the overlapping thoughts that create this kind of layers of curtains between us and and Emptiness is the buddhist term for it. They say that you have to go into emptiness before you could you know come out into [awakening]? There's a phrase that I often like to quote from buddhism Which is emptiness becomes? Luminosity but first of all we have to allow ourselves to empty of the old story or the old stories that we you know have put a put that by which we put together our whole life and Tell us what's right? And what's wrong? What's true much not true and real and unreal and you know all that stuff and what we're capable of and what we're not capable of Those are all the stories that live in our heads that we pick up from the time were born and some would say from previous Lives easy even I don't normally talk this fast by the way country could be I'm greedy and greedy I'm going to get as much as possible in and 20 minutes before tom gets the came, and he's got hiding behind the thing there [so] ideally it would be great if your intention if one's intention is to wake up with the assistance of Cannabis or you might even say the Cannabis spirit? to at least some of the [time] you're working with it trying to Allow [it] to be itself without doing anything particularly in other words Not putting on music or reading or chatting with friends or whatever just being there with it There's a phrase in the native American [church] Which is watch out for head traffic Because you have to surrender to those medicines and people are casual about Cannabis because it's so common and it seems to be more gentle and all that but when you really relate to it in the ways that I'm talking about it can be what a number of researchers and experienced practitioners call a very advanced spiritual medicine because indeed In the ideal circumstances or the optimal and suppose you could say circumstances it can actually allow [us] to open up completely to presence and in fact How to put this in a short amount of time because I usually just get to ramble about it for a while Okay, so maybe I'll just tell you this this is again a condensed version You could think of the spiritual awakening journey from say beginning to end as one that say starts over here where? you're living in whole life through the Second-hand information of the stories right the narratives that you've developed to tell you who you are and what and what everything else is The Journey of awakening is from there is generally almost always gradually I think learning to Trust unconditional intelligence of right now without concept [buddhists] talk a lot of concept layers and layers of concept that we build up right and It's in emptying all that stuff and allowing ourselves to be fully present that we wake up You know and then we learn to trust that ideally that's the path is that we learn to gradually trust that So you could think of Cannabis as an energy medicine? That it allows you to deepen your entrance into the present into the present moment and then the more you do that [John] bellow in the book talks about it like that – that, the That in some sense the high is almost a [side-effect] no it can be extremely lovely as most people who have experienced it know right? but It's also going to wear off in a couple of hours, and you're probably going to be back more or less at basecamp again And where you started from the question is as people like great religious? Scholar Houston Smith would say something like we're trying to move from altered states to altered traits in other words you know a spiritual life not just experiences, so yeah, he had another one that I just came [upon] a couple of days ago, which was something like From passing illuminations to about abiding light which I thought was really good as well So it's really a life journey, and what Cannabis can do in that regard is it can be a retraining? process of trusting the Moment I Think as I say it's really important for at least part of the time that one is doing what's practiced with Cannabis for that intention To try to be empty with it try to just be still try to allow the thoughts to to die away Fall away not not with any kind of judgment [Canon], just like what it is You know you know you want to kill your boss finds just a thought You know come back to and then you're you're allowing the way I like to think of Cannabis in that regard as you're allowing the plant to do its work unobstructed This is where they avoid the head traffic thing comes in right if we can get out of our Obscuring thinking mind. I always like what Eckhart tolle said about that, [too]. You know the power of now guy He said the ideal relationship with your thinking mind would be if you could treat it as a tool that you pick up [when] we need to use it but When you don't need to use it you can put it down Unlike the buddhist teachings talk about the thinking mind is something that controls us in a sense because we're using it to obscure reality so the real short version is that you [can] do yoga with Apparently Cannabis with yoga and a whole bunch of other practices chanting you know sacred drumming shamanic drumming whatever It can also support other Entheogens or pSychedelics and if I [have] more time, I'd go into that too, and it's discussed by two of the contributors to the book Who have used Cannabis successfully in conjunction with Ayahuasca ceremonies? [because] it has a potential to do several things can potentiate the effects of another medicine It can soothe them or smooth them it can clarify Insights they sometimes use it at the end of ayahuasca ceremonies? for the sharing sessions because if you have if you do it if you do cannabis in a sort of a clear silent way if you You can do Cannabis in a kind of a clear silent way [then] you've already had these powerful medicines you know going on for a few hours. It can really help clarify Your insights, that's the way some of these ayahuasca people use it so Yeah, just that that Cannabis can be a supporter and I like to think of it as a humble plant that way if you I? Know you maybe have had this kind of experience if you take some say psilocybin mushrooms and two hours later You have at least this is my experience and other people I've talked to say two hours later. You have a couple of folks It's not going to feel like a cannabis Hi, it's going to feel like a mushroom Hi with this sort of little extra Jolt or whatever or even that smoothness thing that I was talking about right? So I think of it as a Kind of like a Bodhisattva. I've never used that term [before] to describe Cannabis But she serves us she's I see her as a healer I see her as a kind of a saint in a sense, you know that if we can treat her with respect if we can retreat her as a holy medicine as a sacred medicine and And give ourselves to her completely when we're with her I'm not saying all the time and I do want to say also that I don't please don't take anything. I'm saying as Judgment against you if you're using Cannabis daily you know that's up to you of course. That's the people's plan like I said, right [so] you know we are should always be free to use Cannabis the way we want I would just personally hope that if I knew you and you were a friend of mine. You were using it beneficially in your life and the more attention We give it the more respect the more calmness the more we pay [attention] to the setting you know internal and external The Chances are we're going to learn more [from] it the more we can get out of our own way So to speak and just be there with her like she's a lover like she's our teacher like she's our therapist in that moment you know and then she can teach us how to reconnect go into the moment more deeply and as You've probably discovered since you're probably all cannabis people she can also be a truth serum One of the contributors to the book Jeremy wolf says pot leaves you naked and the first thing you see is yourself So people that don't like pot probably have that experience go fuck I don't know I'm going back to my dominator mode you know so It can humble us in Allowing ourselves to see more clearly where we do make missteps. You know where we are It perhaps a needed some corrective action in our and you know in a way that we conduct ourselves So that she can tenderize us that way she can sensitize us that way I could say a lot more But I probably [talked] more than 20 minutes already [um] So me, we we open it up to [discussion] so [Angle] Plenty more Conversational okay, good point you know yeah, good point Let me just say this then to sort of sum up the quote quote talk part of it two of the contributors to the [brooke] and and I I kind of agree as a as a Possibility certainly not to make any kind of you know grand statement about it that Cannabis could be the sacrament of the universal religion of the future [one] of the contributors to the book Steven Hager who was She editor-in-chief [of] high times magazine for 25 years calls it the sacrament of peace You know that if you use it wisely in your life, and it's you don't have an unhealthy or you know overly dependent relationship on plant it can allow us to in a sense soft and up and Soften up the walls and the boundaries that we put around ourselves connect with each other connect with nature connect with the spirit connect with [ourselves] in that way so I just wanted to end my portion of the sort of Monologue by Suggesting that in a completely non dogmatic non hierarchical way that might only have you know two Two teachings in the whole book like get Ganesh baba You know sit down shut up and pay attention McKenna thing or sit with a straight spine and dedicate it to the spirit You know and then just try to be mindful and respectful This plant has the potential if enough people use it that way to make a big difference I think in the way that the affairs of humanity are conducted, so thank you What's that? We have started [that] chat first Well actually I've [got] a copy of the Starbucks today. It was only about  [just] like because you're not going to come up in conversation. My father my way in but Just a couple of minutes as a digression that's to know anything Anybody have any experience with people who are supposed to be has to say [thirds] Hmm when you mean in a physiological way I don't know because it's [blank] street language [because] oh yeah some people like you and really do badly. [I] am like 10 years ago I test first time in 30 years I had some Extremely concentrated strength. We have five hours of running the engine bombing which is almost to happen – yeah in internal experience also fail Okay, so that's so you hope that's a big question actually or a big issue that's a pretty good experience of the running car pain and one of three founding members of our research and [we] are the folks who decided to save butane Hash oil by publishing the plans and access to a [closed-loop] system to make the whole thing a lot safer and that's kind of where we are today, but we started as you know [courts] medical Cannabis and experientially I personally have never Gotten sick [from] Canada, but what you did was overdose It's not an allergy you overdose when you overdose on canvas and that Overdose is different for every single person depending on your endocannabinoids System and your situation and your surroundings [a] lot of things come into play So what [happened] to you is you just took too much you're lucky you didn't throw up [I've] watched people puke for 18 hours well and and that can happen especially when you're doing those [concentrations], but some people have such a light tolerance that they can throw up even smoking Cannabis Yeah That Delfan I agree with [sexist] if you would but at the same time I also would throw up in the 75 It was like to the extent we were to 375 when I first use it when I was a kid, okay like to stop as was so bad and I tried it once again because I would run this guy who I was actually helping and harvesting, so But in the 70 if I also did have a llama [team] experience it was always the same thing as like I had three specific instances that one [grade] And several dozen times or it was either just unpleasant or just downright nasty and that would be strange Riven is Absolutely kind of so if you like there a lot of people I included and have ten more tendencies towards the Indica strings Because they tend to be more medical more sedate is more calming where the Sativa strengths tend to be more Racy? Those are the ones that can give you the overdoses quickest So you have to understand particularly in the 70s where it was not a legal drug the growers wanted to make as much money as they could as quickly as they could and so they'd harvest a week early well in Harvesting a week early your trichomes are clear And they're very very racy and they can put you into an immediate anxiety example well here again comes Comes what we talked about it's even talked about with respect to encounters in the very beginning You know it's like okay the pictures [stream], then you decide how long you maturate this How you're going to cure it out? How you're going to extract it How you're going to process it afterwards all is it's all critical You can make a Cannabis medicine It will do pretty much anything, but if you want to make a really good sleep medicine [you] pick a nice heavy Indica strain alight on the commune white widow and you maturate that plant ounces you know hey grow it for Ten [weeks], you know so that all the trichomes are nice and goal in the planets decarboxylated on a natural basis and then you take that plant and you can extract it a warmer and that will continue to to decarboxylate the plant ie Convert the thC to [CBM]. Which makes it more sedated. So there's a whole bunch of things that go into it and Man, isn't ant important absolutely very very important whether you're making a medicine [for] someone who's sick or whether you're? You know heading out to the movies and you certainly don't want to fall [asleep] So you better not be taking that it gets into constrainted I grew out for can wait you want you know something that's more secure So intent is really that's probably one of the most important things that you [met] so many people yes indeed so I'd like to make a couple of points or comments at least about what you're saying one Is that sort of in line with what you're saying the the research now is just really blowing me away I've been to some of the conference's lately like the kind of a seb conference, and it's really remarkable But the rapid development and research now not only it's it's it's gone way Beyond the sensitive the Indica continuum issue [it's] yes, the cbd is having a big effect on it CbD has anti-anxiety effects and is calming effects it as antidepressant effects in and they work It works synergistically with thc as well, so the two of them work together So for those who don't know there's only you can only have like x amount of the two those are the two predominant Cannabinoids in the plant and if there's more ThC there's going to be less CbD in Vice-versa There's always room for like me. You know in the same plant. So there's that but then also as Dr.. Wheeler for Dr. Ethan Russo's talk he's amazing yes. Yeah, and he went through all bunch of the terpenes and And so the for example Mercy are you familiar with Mercy? Yeah, so The reason they think that now that the Indica strains tend is not that they're Indica per se It's that they more likely to have mercy in them. Which is [a] terpene which causes drowsiness So and this is but what both you and I are saying for you is predicated on your interest in actually exploring the issues But if you are I would say you know talk to people at a dispensary or some kind of store that Really know what they're talking about because there are so many combinations now You know you can do pure cbd strains that have no psychoactive effect although some people say there's a little bit Martinelli, who's an expert is a head of project cBD? He's found that plants with a [two-to-one] in favor of CBD [two] to one cBD to thC Give him what he calls a heart high you know. He said it's not a head high it's a heart high So there's so there's that and then the other thing I wanted to say to you Sir is that yeah in case you didn't know I was addressing you is This is a little more questionable of me to say it's just a suggestion as a possibility Because I've actually seen this manifested with other same things not specific not necessarily nausea per se, but Cannabis has the potential to be an ego dissolver and Nobody really wants their ego to be dissolved, right? You know it's like my old buddhist teacher said you can lose your wall. You could even lose your wife, but your ego so It's almost [universal] if not universal to have some fear associated with the dissolution of this package of ourself that we've put together Right it's a threat to the status quo, and the egos extremely clever It will come up with anything. It can do to try to protect the status quo, and [that] could include dizziness nausea ETc Etc. Panic attacks Paranoia [all] that stuff, [so] it is possible. [I] have no idea if it's true, but it's possible that that in your At least part of that may have been your reaction to the threat to the status quo Even though you may not have been conscious of it and so then the question again for you if I may say So is whether you want to explore that you know using Cannabis anymore in your life? You know there's nobody's going to make you obviously But if you were interested you might explore different kinds of strains that can be more gentle and also as this one was saying through Dosage is key I it's addressed in the book actually by several people including myself. Which is this idea that less is more [you] [know] Yeah, and [I] caution people you know that if they're not familiar with it, or if they [having] trouble with it But they're still interested in working with the edge to start with very very small dosages and find out where you're you know at One [point] I think I I think I said in the book That one way of thinking [about] the what you might call the optimal dosage of Cannabis if you're using it as [a] spiritual medicine is The dosage that you both can and want to Handle and that could be the lightest gentle dose or if you can handle it And you want to go deeper to go deeper because sometimes more is more – right anyway. That's enough for me we Yeah Hey, yeah, I was just sharing with your favorites from getting out [the] trap getting out of the head trap Well, you know that's that's [kind] of the giant question for humanity really you know it is any question You know there's no There's no way around it you know you have to put your fucking feet in the fire period You know I I work with Ayahuasca a lot and Lately I don't know if you've [ever] heard of the sign to add Ayami church now I've hooked up with some Santa by me people up in Vancouver and [what] I found working with them Is it's really create a really good container It's really straight for is really simple and what I find is every time I go in there and drink that ayahuasca My relationship to whatever you want to call it. You know [true]. God whatever it is That unconditional reality is naked. I see my resistance. I see my whatever level of willingness to Surrender. I have And I watch myself Trying to escape it It's like anywhere But now you know [Eckhart] [tolle] [says] that – he says and now is never enough Nobody wants to be in the now Because it's it's nothing you can't be who you were any more on some level You does that make sense you know we that's what the ego is in you know sort of buddhist or psychological terms is this some? this narrative configuration this package that we've put together that and then It's not to be judged in any way because we needed it to survive You know like everybody has to find a way to make themselves something that can that can survive in this world You know survive psychologically spiritually emotionally in this world, but at a certain point it Starts to hold us back. You know, so there's nothing other to do with it I don't think then just keep working with it. You know never heard of the Poet Rumi the Yeah, okay, so Rumi says something like in one of his little quatrains he says Ours is not a caravan of despair if you break your vow a thousand times come back come back come back and the way the simple follow the breath meditation was taught to me in the Environment was it doesn't matter how many times you go into thought doesn't matter if it's 60 times an hour or more? Just don't judge it as they used to say no praise no blame just notice it well there I am thinking again doesn't matter [you're] thinking for two seconds or twenty minutes you know at some point You're going to where we generally we don't it's like falling asleep. You don't know when you're falling asleep You don't know usually when you're going out of presence either? But at a certain point whether it's just because your notice of it because somebody costs beside you and you go. [oh], yeah, right? I just planned it my whole week tomorrow for tomorrow For the next week or whatever You go. Oh, okay? I've just been in my head all that time so you just acknowledge it without judgment and Come back to being present again in the meditation technique that we were taught It's just gently following the breath because the breath is some unconditional innocence right no intellectual component to that, it's just real So I don't think there's anything else you can do. I didn't just work with it. You know In the book I talk a little bit more about how if that naked presence is too much to handle [you] know adding more form with say chant. You know? whatever sacred song Shamanic drumming guided visualizations, you know can help I had one guy who's here I sometimes leave ceremonies of Cannabis And I had one fellow just was what we did a guided white light meditation thing you know and he just went it Just totally blew his socks. I just blew the whole system open for him so I would just say perseverance Non judgment, and just keep coming back to the wellspring is often responsible in your life you know that's why you know 2500 years of Buddhist said you know sit down shut up and pay attention because you actually have to have have to work at it Most people have to work at it, but [the] point is no matter How [kids] a lot of people say hey? I can't sit still. I can't meditate. You know. I was too busy lying or whatever but I think that's selling yourself short no matter how busy your mind is I think the point is of 2500 Years of and other teachings or however made thousands of years? that That everyone you know again buddhist terms. It has good in nature and is capable of Waking up of seeing through you know this series of stories that prevent this prevent us from seeing reality so How do you have Faith half of [three] fit? I would say anger. I want just aren't in Magic hidden That's that's how you get out of that do that so in answer to the young lady's question The [quite] the answer was on and Magic heart and Magic, okay, cool I? beg your pardon What does that mean? What does that mean? How do you do that? Okay? Yeah? [I] look at what I'm watching [like] okay, my watch I think if you think of you know if you would sort of even tentatively, you know proceed on the basis that if you have difficulty quieting the mind it's because You're obscuring something right you're obscuring that reality in yourself And so there's no other way around it [than] just to keep working with [it] and have some kind of Tentative Faith or confidence that perseverance will produce results, you know And yeah, I mean we all just have ourselves to work with it's just energy right. Yes Hmm What [stream] do you recommend? Well that's an interesting one and I tried to talk [about] it a bit in the book as well [I] don't think there's a simple answer to it [and] again in terms of what we were talking about a few moments ago here It's such a complex plan. It doesn't come [down] to the Sativa, Indica thing anymore You know I? read that there are over a thousand chemicals in this plant emits and the number of the fair number of them are unique to the Plant [you] know and all these terpenes you know that I mentioned like Mercy. They all have significant effects on the whole thing so there's this entourage effect as what they talked about and really the only real answer [to] that question is Experiment until you find a strain that you like, and then make your fucking dispensary keep producing It's [easier] PDa's of one CBC or [cDA's]. I'm not there I've heard these but I'm not very familiar with them, [but] yeah, they're working [on] the researchers are working on them. Yeah There are some logistical problems. You know trying. You know. I mean you think about the you know the people that are growing you know did they have the capability of isolating and manipulating all these complex Chemicals you know and then reliably reproducing it the next time [too]. You know it's a plan for God's sakes. You know Some people feel that and I think I'm one of these that the qualities that this woman was referring to of Sativa being more sort of sharp and up and all that are more conducive for meditating even though they can be provoked fought more Because they're more up. They're more awake [more] energizing That's my experience, but you know I'm old or two so my body is different And I don't want something that's going to make me drowsy or sleepy or heavier in any way You know that doesn't work for me. You know I can have a nap so Supposing to happen. I just want to say that I'm really hot I came here because what you're saying is lines whether it's my experience because I've been using marijuana the same exact way to get describing oil for spiritual purposes and then my purposes are Probably different in what they are different in anybody's here, and I and if I start talking [over] punk [I] get emotional That's why I think that's cool to the girls This was that space dude nearly [didn't] come. I told the manager garage. I don't need the drug to connect to her I Living all the time. Oh, you're in it, and I'm alright what I used to dress for it is when I get home and What middle one really comes in to do it for me? I'm sick Let me describe my relationship with her so she comes to me throughout the [in] time day twist up at night and She filled me with a love that is [so] strong that it cost did I cry [sometimes] Joey I just scream for joy, and it happens at work. It happens. It doesn't it I don't have to be high As what happens all the time in this thing going on for a year, and it's not anything dude I've had this relationship for a long time. I've had Forty five years, but it's kind of like first five years ago I've had it and it kind of what soniscape about [thirty] years and a year ago. It came back [I] [just] and it's been like this for [pivots] on top of the year but when I use marijuana when this is really good is that marijuana does open up that door a little bit to her and that's What's really cool about because it is a female personality, but you run into she's very very nurturing Villagers pulled up into her arms love and it's sometimes [breast] [lung] Apologist there for hours on this it's complete union with her and it's like Tears it's falling through my [angel]. Just like and it's just amazing. You know it well. Thank you, buddy Really had Harrison's [Si] who is in the book who is she I think you'd really dig it. That's what I'm saying I'm good really I can because here's my favorite one in the [one-ders] Person, I'm kind of my adult meals on my own on my own [income] here. Here you Know ideation is very validation Yeah
well then I ended thing that you said I'm going to find out more about you said about the sacrament of the new division because I do think I have an idea of The new Religion after this whole year about a whole religion basically and so when you say about this happened revision It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, they've since the into it on experience now. I personally the [only] thing I would caution Personally it might sound a little bit pretentious to say so but I hope not is please Avoid dogma and Hierarchy in creating any kind of structures for working with this plant we've seen enough of that for the last few thousand years yeah And in fact that that's the spiritual revolution as I understand it that's going on now Is that is we're taking back our spiritual awakening empowerment or power for ourselves with Direct experience? I mean, that's why I got interested in these sentence all together in the first place was because You know you can't get awakened through somebody else. I mean they can guide you of course you know they can teach you etcetera Etc But the plants deep in your direct connection if you use them properly [you] know if you use them effectively So I think the spiritual revolution that's going on now. Is [that] we're starting to learn that We are responsible for our own awakening completely. You know that we are our own authorities we are our own teachers in fact one of the buddhist teachings that came my [way] was at a certain point of the path the Guru How did he put it the phenomenal world becomes the guru? Right it's our own relationship to the world that teaches us all we're seeing [is] our own Reflection of our state of mind always. We're always seeing a reflection of where we're at [so] We're seeing from peace then I think the zen does guys guys say something like that when you sit down when you sit the whole World sits with you or something – not affair. You know when you're at peace the world feels peaceful You know even of course you know the same stuff's going on, but you're experiencing it from a state of peace So I think that's the spiritual revolution that we're undergoing now that needs to happen if we're even going to survive on this planet Yes [before] the Revolution [or] you've been in this for a long time, so What's happening? Now as far as members and people never? Opening up to this and then the [pool] and also I guess you did workshops a lot some of those girls I [don't] give workshops But I [need] cannabis ceremonies occasionally in fact am I allowed to mention this in this context or have already settled at 5:37 okay. Yeah, but I do occasionally The small groups like this you use comes. Yeah, but this is up in Vancouver Okay, so you'd have to make the [journey] to vancouver, but you'd be welcome to be in touch with [me] if you want [yeah], we've been doing them two ways we've been doing them on More or less all day where we have an edible involved because that goes on longer Allows you to take your time more with the difference my My key thing is as much as possible I want I want us to have the possibility of just being empty with the with the plant like just sitting meditation You know when I the first couple that I did. I wasn't sure how much they were all people I knew you know and they were all people that had previous experience with Entheogens and with Cannabis But not that way of using Cannabis necessarily But I didn't know you know could they sit for 10 to 15 minutes repeatedly You know or could they sit for half an hour you know without having something else going on so every 10 minutes or so I'd sort of interrupt them and get it my big [Tibetan] song and go like this or something or you know play my little from Columbus thing or or start a chant or we had a yoga teacher lead us [through] some stretches And so we just broke it up a lot But what I found was [that] you know in general people could sit for an hour or more Just silent sitting meditation [watch] the thoughts come watch [them] go and just keep coming back and at the end people were saying things like wow I Took totally different way of relating to cannabis that I've ever done before you know people [were] saying I had a problematic [relationship] with this plant. I didn't even want to do it anymore but that's the way you can get into your head with it right the amplification of Thoughts can be very negative as a whole issue as well like for young people and so on that are really it's really Sensitive you know be careful about what thoughts you buy into because it's exaggerated the thoughts potentially As far as you know, how fast this sort of revolution is developing. I don't know Tom you might know more, but I have and I do just from a Cultural standpoint what it looks like [and] I'm not sure because we're still all waiting to see how this unfolds, but it seems as if this spiritual revolution of Stephen Bharata was Going on and there was this other thing called the pSychedelic renaissance also going on and they've just kind of Collided in the past couple of [years], and I think we're all just kind of wondering. What's gonna there they're both kind of playing in and out at least from from what I can see in my Perspective of it and you know doing conferences like what stephen talks about and going on tour and you know really um trying to be a part of this thing called the pSychedelic renaissance, and it seems like [they're] [just] a Few movements are also kind of client also kind of like the neo-Pagan in which community is also really you know it's I Think Stephen said it best. It's this this common denominator of Your own you know ideas of spirituality And it's just like that that idea that you've just you're just going to decide for yourself You know what you want to believe in experience for yourself. Yeah, and experience [your] help and what you know [that's] I don't know but that's just my take on it man Yes things there concerning me one is that Organization that appears is kind of a [spawn] Algorithms called [maps] org yes, very familiar with them tSP. So they're doing really aboveboard research Normal Especially MDMa for Trauma [no] so it's coming down the pike. They're giving it to 500,000 are million veterans who are guys who voluntarily go to the military came back to the trauma? Yeah? so it's going to be [very] it's going to be like my prozac or just [everybody] is just Dispensing are you talking about Cannabis and particularly? I'm thinking like anything. It's very focusing on MDMa right now They're also going in there like they're resurrecting the fact that Softening immediately thought that LSD was clearly the site man, so there's yeah, the history over there Yeah, well, no, I believe is to you didn't really know what will this go what that is something? but [he] [lien] looked like [a] [dentist] [gentlemen] to finish his thought oh if I'm eric lee could so it's just like the the [therapists] community is looking for these as ways to keep people honest yes, and I don't think that's Boom the census is used just as [a] [knowledge] like automate that the intent can be just fixham Because we don't have the time in person. Call me is knocking also They mature and activists and [commission] Coho. You know whole thing is happening is that Silicon Valley is really big on Microdose insanity or creating more more productive Sales and data in [a] high-tech machine machine right and the other thing is just that that thing going to hand you james Therapists are trying to prescribe mindfulness just as a practice in the same way, it's just [fits] yourself there It's kind of hard waking up that Sorry, are you because it's you understand? They're using it as an example kind of a treatment [like] you whatever is in there. Just fixed it by using meditation as opposed to understanding like the core of meditation Relaxing ideals, so I'm going I'm impressed that This cup groups like this might be one place where people can kind of keep that Are the original emotion that there's something much more to it than just like logical health yeah, or that it's just Another not acknowledge sure oh, yeah, absolutely in difficulties to me well If I don't have a comment on that those'll totally agree with you people What's up it also does health a lot of any [changes]. I had it's not black and white it really is private using pSychedelics [for] Psychological what? I'm actually very I will say I'm actually very in support of what mouse is doing with MDMA Because it's not actually [a] pSychedelic. You know Well MDMa is not is not a psychedelic. It's an empath agem, [and] it has this dramatic Benefit for PTSd because it knocks [out] the fear factor It opens up the heart so [you] can have compassion to the situation that you would in couldn't face And it leaves you completely clear [so] you can talk about it with your therapist So I think there's immense potential there and actually this is just my home theory I don't know if Rick Doblin the head of mouth would even agree [with] you but I Think that there's a little bit of a tricky thing going on with him in that sense that his true mission is to have recognition and legalization for all the pSychedelics and MdMa is the most likely one to be the leading edge at this time because it's not a pSychedelic [it] can be produced exactly the same every time [and] PtSd is something that the authorities can relate to and sympathize with yeah, this is [motorisation] phone yes. [yeah], I just got out here defeated, but You sure you bet out of one the air force uh-huh yeah, we're going for 10 years [as] soon as I got out I Went to same thing happening I'm over the bone was completely out on the floor luckily. I had brothers in Colorado and Sort of [said] hey, we need to calm down not let you well It's been 10 years and yet, untouched in life. Yeah, I mean I Think yeah, and you were in Colorado when you [smoked] [it] the first you [know]. They'd be like working on it really really do with it as far as pTSd this concept of Delving into something and we heard yourself. I know what that feels like [because] I did sing that [go] [home] And I had to come back I had the exercise to begin had to remind myself that I'm my own best teacher and no one's going to understand this You know wonderful thing it's a [plan] it did now. I think here as long as we go And [we] have to learn how to talk through it yeah when I was in military have the links Cryptologic which I government dealt with spending on assessing I also work in the technological units a lot. I did with home Network Engineering administration, I see a big sea revolution that is coming on the tech side We don't get personally put to it is we suppose. We ride bus And I thought to scare anybody, that's the parent they hate you know This is scary on both sides and I know it feels I should be in this new world of psychic telling when it was pretty much barred from Home and it has helped [it] has put my mind into such a wonderful and my question for [you] is I also am a big martial artist and [allow] the Chi Gong and Tai Chi and just like Stretching out those [ranging] yoga. I am clearing that line into your cell B2. [well], here folks. Do you think that using? That width or an injunction. What is the timing w use and use it before your practice during the petals or act? You know good question out You talking about specific Jeremy. Can you even keep the plants? Oh? He's recording yeah, so This gentleman is asking if I understood it correctly That if you're using Cannabis and conjunction lists are you talking about say martial arts practice is affected for [her] going through the form [anti] – yeah yeah, so the question is you know when might you do that in conjunction like Chronologically like have a Cannabis first ordering or whatever yeah, so well, I don't to be honest I don't think there's a hard and fast answer to that. I certainly wouldn't see a problem with Say for example starting with a meditation Two of the guys that have contributed to the book Shawn and Steve excuse me. I got to move [I] hope it doesn't throw this thing off too much, but I've been sitting on my knees for 45 minutes when they when they smoke Cannabis Not always sometimes they're looser with it [the] first thing they do is they sit in meditation for 20 minutes before they have any conversation They just sit in silence and really connect with it And then if they're going to have a conversation about something or work [with] it. That's I hope you were here when I mentioned Steve Dyer He's one of those two guys He he said it's really important to know what you're going to do with that plant because of its of its amplification capability You can direct that energized quality, right so refuse if you kind of connect with the plan I'm just making this up as I go along at the moment in terms of your question if you connect with the plan first [you] know sit down and meditate with it for 10 or  minutes. You know? Maybe if you feel like it, maybe do a little bit of yoga stretching or something just to loosen the body up But really just as much as possible get out of your head and be silent with it Then you've established that relationship and then perhaps a natural thing would be to rise into the movement It's that's kind of a guess But that's my sense of how it might be effective in conjunction with something like you're talking about [I] Could have been tagged one day lately. I find it. You know take a brownie not How are we [going] [in] there? He thinks the whole thing am I what it is. I'm doing there. Yeah, that's what I'm doing that's great [till] now so my goes away really high experience [is] kind of similar but [solace] in theology of it. They [hurt] increased heart rate got the Acceleration of things so I I smoked and pretty soon. [I'm] this morning to move around mmm when I listen to some psyChedelic music static music some dance music I just had the best workout pepper. Yeah. Yo, they're dancers You can really keep your awesome try eating it out without the iPad serious meditation on vision [and] going through sports mostly [is] the major problems study [listen] content how the ancients look at that or It's really deep it When I'm looking at it in conjunction with Cannabis. I don't support [altar] hmm. Yeah, well you know that's you know as a as. I keep liking to say it's the people's platic You know we can do whatever we want [with] it or not You know as long as we're respectful And we can experiment to find out for himself or ourselves were we're at a point in the culture Where we're sort of at [the] bottom you know like these plants have been vilified for a long time the link to the past has been cut for the most part and And cannabis is safe enough of a plant to work with that way that I think this is a time historically speaking to for people to be Experimental and find out how [its] best going to work in conjunction with other practices and other activities You know I think in general less mind going on. You know the best less thinking going on [you] know is good like for example There's a little bit of discussion about Cannabis and creativity in the book And I I wrote a little introductory chapter and then I had two people write about the two artists write about their own use of Cannabis in their work and In my little bit I said you know you could take the view that Creativity and spirituality are not separate. I think that you know that true creativity is you know kind of like downloading? The muse or whatever and it's all spiritual in that sense so Excuse me then this fellow named Floyd salas. [he's] an award-winning writer. Wrote a chapter for the book and he said That he always writes under the influence, [but] [he] said before I do that He said what that [ok] so before he does that he does his research He does all his study and and takes notes and everything like that, but when it comes to act He's done All that prep and then he's sitting down to do the writing he has a toke or two and he said what that does is open him up and and Connects them to his what you were talking about like the love you know within them And he saw I I smoked pot to love so that I can write so You know it's all about us Just finding out how we can work with [this] plant if we even want to you know I mean. I'm not trying I'm not proselytizing and I Don't care on some level whether people use it or not I think it can be a benefit if we use it wisely and I think it can have a big influence on the culture if Enough people to learn how to use it wisely but for any individual Who knows you know in fact some [people] are so sensitive that they're already connected in that sense? I would say you know you even just said that something like yourself And you said that and I've heard this from a number of people with other antigens that Once you've connected with that the spirit of that medicine. You [don't] necessarily need the medicine anymore, you know Because you have a relationship with the spirit of it [and] maybe sure in my case [a] is the same I had 45 years ago Yeah, and it came [back] And I can't and I can't remember if it was Vicky when I started smoking weed is up time you realize in here these when it starts going in There may be supposed to do that – yeah Well, you know like they look bored of the ayahuasca arrows, they're doing ayahuasca ceremonies five 10 15 times a month you know [and] I've talked to some of these guys and and They'll just have a little bit and it just zones them right in yeah about a month [through] one of those [sets] that we go on [teens]. Yeah, I uh so good luck Jus in Bello books we actually talked about being locked up marijuana back today, and I'm sitting in plants period Yeah, I've read the book, but I forgot that part yeah but the benefits of marijuana Spiritual psychological and something else medicinal maybe yeah, and he's really seem to fit You know that's so cool [bad] because it's always been known as [the] female so figure was something of [a] female but she's been gone for a long time [who] here is about her, but [she] everybody reads better it means a near-Death experiences when they feel like they're feeling like Love and are being carried to the next that's that's the same [love] that seems to me that is the same female [visted] Involve his plan no home no We live in [Arkansas] It's actually a female [plan] is convenient fires, right? But more than just being an actual female plant because ayahuasca doesn't have a male and female Plant right for example. You know or the divine. It's just one. It's not a [fit] Oh well It's actually quite a complex process and one of the favorite psychedelic stories that you know people know is that It gets told in almost any book about ayahuasca Is that all over the [Amazon] people who for thousands of years never met each other they didn't have email you know Or whether for telephones or [anything] found? same [two] plants Independent of each other apparently as far as anyone can tell Because it takes at least two plants there can be other plants add mixtures, but it's it requires two plants because the vine By itself contains Harmelin. I think it is [done] yeah, which has some psycho psycho psycho active effect, but not powerful but the other plant the the Dimethyltryptamine containing DmT containing plant that's a corona and cycle [treviris] and some others, but those are the primary ones contains a powerful Component of DmT, but it's orally inactive in the stomach Because it's deactivated in the stomach because of something called mono a mean oxidase is Nos [Browns] Monoamine oxidase Mal but the vine has an mao inhibitor which then allows the DmT to go to work and So the researchers go down there. You [know] the Dennis McKenna's of the world and these [people] go down there And they say, how did you guys find that and they sell well the spirits told us? Go get this bad. They'll get this one. Yeah, and So then what you do is you combine those plants, and you brew it for a really long time I don't know it probably [varies]. I don't know I'm the right one yeah There's probably recipes in books somewhere but but there's a lot more to [it] to do it, right You [know] because it's not [just] a mechanical process For example. I have a book at home called rainforest medicine ever seen that when Tom I think it's a really good book He spent 30 years with with indigenous people in Colombia And he said that he watched the way they do it and they they treat every single stage of the process from the very very beginning of the growing of the bunt vine until the final result as a sacred very careful reverent activity and they only like [harvested] in certain conditions and at certain times and even stuff that you might think it's just kind of superstitious like if [a] dog Walks it was it a dog of a dog black dog or something or a dog walks across the top of it while they're taking? It from a to b. They'll throw it out. You [know] the stuff like that That's regardless of whether there's any sort of real basis to that the it Indicates the care and respect that they show to it And so that's one of the themes with these plants that even comes into it with Cannabis And you know you've been around the aspect of Cannabis Maybe you feel connected to compliant in that way yourself But one of the chapters in the book is on sacred growing and the person who wrote that chapter says that The love and care that you put into that plant at every stage of the growing will have an actual manifest effect on the on the user of the plant and he said he's found that over and over again when he Shares some of his own roles and stuff With friends that have not tried it before they go wow that is totally different [from] anything I've [ever] smoked before so I you know that that's another issue, too You know like what's going into the plant both. You know mechanically, chemically and spiritually you know [talk] about pesticides and things like that being right on the plant and I don't know if that might have something [to] do [with] I think that's also possible or I kind of just what you think about that in [terms] of using a plant if I were the dictator of the world [I] would absolutely insist that all cannabis would be grown organically You're just adding one more element that you don't actually know it's already a complex plant. You know They're working hard on it in Canada right now because we're about to go federally legal. You know and you know did globe and mail our national newspaper did a study of Cannabis dispensaries in Toronto, and they they tested samples from I think 13 or they I don't know how many they did but I think they found Samples of Cannabis from 13 different dispensaries that had banned pesticides in them molds, [and] they also did not match their claims about the ThC content [so] that's a big issue that we're working on in Canada right now. You know is What I would like to see I mean just in a visionary sense, not necessarily. I don't know what the logistics are What I would like to see is that there'd be some kind of? trustable organic certification, you know There cheap and easy way you can test every [string] very [bass]. That's the problem. Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem They're talking about [these] Valley Oregon yet Because the testing is so expensive now with everything they've [got] [to] do And you know the number of tests that you [have] to do with almost? Bass show that they're talking about if you pass you know ten times in a row Thank you, then you get apply on that you get to go without testing or with Menya thing where they randomly test After that, [but] everybody's got to establish a record moving in the middle which makes sense So those unfortunately you know I can see the issues of the multiple samples if we're talking about flowers but when you extract everything from the same pot We're taking it from the left side of the pot and the right sides apart at the center of the positive mean It doesn't make any difference that it's all the same anyway. They don't had any rate all that stuff being like that Well, you know what if I'm not mistaken? Isn't random? inspection a common practice in many industries, and if you don't [inspect] everything But if somebody knows that there's a good chance, they're going to come by eventually And check you then you're going to try to keep it straight right? So maybe it could work like that You know where they just eventually but there's kind of gotta be a starting place for instance you go to California Yeah, every every single sample that went into I can't remember what? What cup? It was but every single sample was attended with Tainted with pesticide home and [and] it's because they don't really have testing you know callie. You don't really Can't hash oil in you know you're not supposed to manufacture it down there, so it makes everything rather complex So we're kind of starting from a negative Spot to begin with an answer hopefully You know there's and there is a big difference between what's been growing Callie, and the same kind of test that we're running Oregon didn't turn out to be anywhere near and What happens? It depends on the area But when we go legal in Canada, I'm going to start growing my own and I'm not going to put any pesticides on yeah Yeah, this is we only have about five minutes left apollo So ross has a final question and then if you want to just [grow] this out with something Sure, yeah be great. Well. Thank you Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so my question was about you would mentioned earlier something along the lines of The difference between [a] shrooms and marijuana and everything go In my experience when like the first time I tried my hands on purpose yeah I I mix it with marijuana Krinkle made it that would make speed here Yeah, and that was like a mind-bending experience But I never say it since then not whenever I smoked marijuana mostly the stuff with ThC in it I find it really easy to recall my experiences with mushroom soil and that Association and everything is that a normal thing or sucked am I just making that up? What is that everything's normal in my view okay? I don't know to be honest, okay. Is there like some sort of spiritual significance to that Not that I've ever heard of no, no, I mean Maybe it's just opened up some channels in you that weren't open before you know. I think that's very possible Absolute I'm staying late Movement patterns together using exactly those same principles Possible [is] that Apartment going on in the web, which is the best yeah in the in the athletic World Sports World you said Please use of to enhance performance and thinking that you just keep into Iraq real life I'm thinking item so it sounds like we have to round up now Do we have to actually [out] a building right now are we at the bo by nine and have to clean physical so okay? So um maybe if people want to talk to me anymore. [I] guess I've got on one with them You know there's there's like a whole lounge area right [here] I just you know in a few minutes one of just at least offshore picking [off] that if you wouldn't mind leading us out With us something a closing argument of Sorts. Well, I think I've Said [it] already you know when I was monologuing earlier, so I I don't want to repeat myself I would just be repeating myself actually so I'm just glad that you came and then we had this discussion Thank you very much for your participation. It was thank you. Yeah highest [amen] on just marijuana horrible please uh Okay, I'm going to do a slightly Roundabout answer and that's because this less is more thing can also apply to how frequently you do the plant and that's addressed in the book as [well] and One of Miriam [Dasilva] who's an Ayahuasca Shaman in a Cannabis Shaman as well? [says] that he tries to always leave like about a week in between times because the effects are deeper and sharper and the Transcendental transcendental effect that he says I don't don't experience that at all if I do it every [day] You know so I had an experience just recently where I was out of Canada was employed by Visiting my dad for two weeks And I am smoked for a few days before and a few days after so it was like three weeks of nothing And then [I] had the same stuff [that] I'd had been smoking you know strong commercial stuff when I got in Vancouver and It was it was [very] I was with my eyes closed. I was having visual experiences that were almost as clear and intense as ayahuasca experiences But I'm not probably the best person to direct that question to because I know a lot of other people have had far [more] intense and bizarre experiences than I have on Cannabis [ever] heard of the hash club of france – each [club] it was leading intellectuals and writers from Paris in the 1850s Tom early 50s. Yeah Gathered together at the home of a rich friend of theirs Yeah, I [drew] zola and [shel] baudelaire a number of his people and this They had they had big gooey balls of Hashish from the middle East I Don't turkey or someplace like that and they would put it in their coffee And then have this meal and then they would down these things and in the book they described some of the experiences One guy said he was sitting alone in the living room and there were dead whales coming out of the fireplace with his eyes open another guy said he tried to walk up the spiral staircase and It took him. He said I'm not exaggerating – it felt like a thousand years people have had the most bizarre extreme Distortions on Cannabis you have to be when you take it orally if I think be really really careful But it also ok so to answer your question directly for me it wasn't overwhelming experiences, but I've had experiences where I felt like I did in fact sort of land in that [timeless] place of Deep peace you know it was short. You know usually my ego comes in and goes. Oh, well. We can't stay here You know we got to make things who stir things up again, but I have had that and Myself and other people have [had] experiences where [they] felt like the love was opened right up the heart compassion was opened right up this Gentleman that just left a while ago and talked about that [-] so I'm not necessarily the best example of that But I know that it I know from a combination of my own experiences from reading and from talking to a lot of people that in the right circumstances It's possible to have well terence McKenna said something like that – he [said] you know this client is capable of almost the full spectrum of psychological effects you know in the right circumstances at any of the [nT] agents and Anyway, we better stop there. Yeah, and I'm telling how many more question, how do you talk? One on one or one on two or one on three you know, but maybe we should actually formally break now So that we can get out of here on time. Yeah