it’s time for another Fantasy Author Lounge! This month, I’m joined by Australian author Sam Hawke – author of the award-winning City of Lies and Hollow Empire. We had a hilarious time chatting about:
– fantasy as a setting as well as a genre
– closed-room mysteries
– how Sam accidentally became a lawyer
– the tradition publishing route
– winning awards
– and the wonders of the author community.
Huge thanks to Sam for joining me, her wonderful insights, and making me laugh so much. My cheeks still ache! Catch up with Sam at www.samhawkewrites.com.
If you want to know more or keep up to date with the Fantasy Author Lounge, subscribe, or, you can follow me on Twitter @BenGalley or on Facebook and Instagram @BenGalleyAuthor.
hello Sam hawk welcome to the fantasy author lounge how are you I'm well thanks thanks for inviting been great he was awesome to have you here I'm really excited to chat and find out more about you your novels and everything so let's kick off for that tell us a bit more about yourself Sam is you're in Australia aren't you based out of Canberra in Australia and I guess I'm kind of a baby in terms of the length of time that I've been in this professional sphere my first book came out last year and I had racked up a grand total of zero professional credits want to be a writer I was just very very slow to do it probably due to a combination of cynicism about my chances of success and you know just bone-deep laziness as well obnoxiously confident that I was gonna be I was pretty young so I have strong memories of in my year one class announcing with you know it's my poor long-suffering new one teacher I would be an author and that I would acknowledge her in the credits of my first books which were made up with a whole bunch of sheets of paper stapled together and I would write elaborate chapter titles and like the first sentence of each one I was very into in in blyton at the time so the chapters were always really dramatic things like you know a nasty shock for the children I also used to as my older brother found very very amusing I would go around the house playing games by myself and I we've no right though but not like a regular child would play a game that no race isn't like it was an also you know my brother would pass by and I'd be crouched in the corner mumbling they turned over the rock and all three of them gasped I guess you'd probably carry cousins now middle grade adventure type things they even when I was trying to write like the kids for an island type stories always I was was always finding your civilizations or aliens on the island so fantasy insights already creep that at that age I think my heart door is I did write and finish a draft of very bad fantasy when I was in hospital and then I think just maybe the reality of you know going to uni and stop thinking about it as a viable career option and decided focusing on you know like a real job kind of thing and I was still doing a lot of editing for other people but my creative output basically fizzled down to nothing in my twenties and then I guess I was home with my first child and a friend when I were talking about writing and I kind of got got to thinking that like I'm home my child never sleeps on the wake about 23:1 I cut out from all drops from from long ago found one that looked viable and determine weed that I would ride it and that was the book that eventually became city of life amazing and that came out last year like you said was that July last year I think it was until I lost you but it was a very long process so that book was we started ten years before that and then abandoned and then even just the process of from when I decided I would I would write it to you know publishing a slow couple of years and top of that to actually get in bookshelf the big question is did you end up mentioning the teacher in the acknowledgments she has found she has found me and she can call from my favorite bookseller my favorite saying that my you one teacher had come in and found the book place so you know would get around and so someone had told her in the book so she when they looked for it and and she was very touched that choosing the acknowledgement so that was lovely we actually haven't managed to get together yet but we definitely will that's awesome that's really cool she must be really proud with a really terrible annoying child to teach one run that no let's talk about you know the book itself city of lies in the poison war d ology tell us more about that what's the inspiration what's the story where did that come from well I lost a fair bit and I think there are probably a whole bunch of things that were factored into the original idea I basically the story is about a brother and sister whose job is to poison taste basically for the ruling family of the story kind of kicks off their uncle who was the current wasn't tasted for the consular the city he and the Chancellor both killed by a poison that they got past him basically it's a new poison they weren't aware of so my two main characters Giovanni my sister Kalina a suddenly kind of left in charge of protecting the new chancellor who is the their childhood friend and and then almost immediately the city was under siege by seemingly its own people particularly you know rebellion of the people in the land so they're basically in a lot of immediately trapped in a besieged city no idea why the the town of the city is under siege and as they progressed they sort of start to find out you know the reasons the reasons why and basically all of the the kind of reasons why the city wasn't quite what they thought it was and their uncles were quite who they very well they're trying to protect their friend and stop everybody dying and always you know poison and intrigue and cortex and and yeah a little bit of old magnetic returning to the world yes so I kind of wrote the story is a combination of my two great loves being epic fantasy and closure of mysteries I was gonna be wondering if you're gonna say poison two great loves poisoning obsessively like kind of 1950 spy novels and so I have a real love for kind of like the Alistair MacLean he just wrote so many great stories that I read in my formative years which are effectively closure mysteries you don't know who to trust and slowly eliminating Sussex and I wanted to kind of explore that in a fantasy setting I mean I have a strong belief that fantasy is is a setting rather than as honor really in the sense that you can have fantasy stories can be adventure stories they can be mysteries they can be answers they can be literary they can be anything basically yeah and so yes sticking my characters you know trying to find a poisoner while they're stuck in ER effectively room besieged City was kind of what I wanted to explore that kind of ratchet of slow build tension no don't know who to trust and don't know whether the information you have is right or not yeah and then you find out it's the butler we mention this earlier but I've got to say again I love that coffee mug I really do lose my coffee mugs this is probably the fifth generation of these cups because my husband I love them so so let's let's dig into what your day looks like as an author because you've got an amazing looking writing cave or at least reading cave behind you and obviously you've mentioned you know be you know having kids to manage I know you've got dogs as well so what does your day look like as an author how'd you get the words I'm not a full time although so I'm a very mixed schedule depending on what day of the week it is and also how you know what I've got you and what's on the plate but it worked my day job three days a week and I have primary school-aged children so today and one other day of the week a my mow days without as many competing demands on my time so these are the days I can get the most done so on my writing days I can like get up normal hour and and the you know settle down and and have a block of time where I can actually get get writing work done and all of the things that you know go along with writing mine on writing days it's a lot less glamorous so you don't have to get up in the morning simple hours before everybody else does and now I know you everyone's probably picturing you're in Australia and you're picturing it being lovely and balmy and warm temperatures we need get up so yeah if I was on a particularly urgent deadline I'd be getting up at 5:00 in the morning working in the computer until the kids get up organizing that morning routine going to my day job at lunch don't my day job going down to the little library area downstairs building and working for an hour then coming home putting kids to bed and starting all over again basic full schedule ideal wait all right if no other reason then you're staring at the screen all day which probably isn't super healthy a beautiful luxurious days and I'm still very up my kids have been at school now for this is the second yeah so kind of settled into this routine of actually having time to devote to writing yeah without feeling like it's it's being wedged in between other things yes what drives you is it you know the love of writing and language is it the words itself is it an escape yeah what does it whew so really know how to answer that question I mean the simplest answer is obviously I like it but that isn't that isn't true all the time you know I always enjoy having written but the actual process is sitting down and doing the work you know very significantly depending on how it's going and it's look at certainly not money or fame or you know the awkward conversations with colleagues my day job about my writing just humans compelled to tell stories it's part of our makeup and some of us are just more strongly compel than others to kind of do this we're done thing that we do lies for a living even when it's not it is mmm do you find a lot of reader feedback inspires you of seekers I mean you're an award-winning author you've won the borealis award the Detmar reward the normal que handling award you know for city of lies so do you find the distractions sometimes yes and sometimes no I'm quite good at ruining things for myself as I'm sure you know as well like you even though the vast majority of feedback is is generally really positive and people are lovely like I'm very good at you know twisting things in my own head to you know just to spoil things that you do wrong I think inherently but like honestly talking to readers and finding that people connected with and enjoyed your book is like it's the actual best thing about about this like learning that someone really really connected to your characters or that the book really meant something to them that's like that's literally what it's all about and so when that happens it's really lovely and we'd like the awards was a genuine genuine shock in my pajamas with my husband in bed with a glass of wine just on the live stream I was watching as much just because I had friends up for awards and I was expecting you know to know some people who knew one things and yeah we actually had this string of hysterical apologetic texts to my friend who was there and who would ask me she was gonna pick up the award if I run it and she asked me to give her an acceptance speech and I was like oh no I'm gonna win I'm not gonna write because we write speech and then I had to send her of these frantic oh my god speech the she wrote because I am the worst critical part of this game absolutely yeah that's amazing I can kind of imagine what that would feel like kind of just sitting it was obviously really cool and amazing and you know very gratifying to win something you can't I said I can ruin things but you can't really ruin a trophy like it's probably just said that because they're being nice yeah so yes it's like I was a great feeling for them at the same time you know feeling like a complete idiot for not being at the ceremony and not having you know you approached it from a humble direction as well didn't you you know thinking that you weren't gonna win you know imagine if you turned out you know the full gown really you know with a trophy case ready to be filled yeah I'm a big big believer in jinxing things so in terms of writing then let's go back to that we've kind of mentioned if you you know there are bad days there are tough days but they're also you know the elation of reader feedback and having a good day of writing well what from your point of view is the best and worst part of being an author well best it's probably what I think that'd be just the feeling when someone has actually read something that you made up and put out into the world and it's meant something to them yeah that that feeling is is pretty amazing it doesn't really go away I just really books have always been such an important part of my life and such you know I grew up in a house that was just completely full of books at all times and so books have just always been such an important thing to me so I still really feel amazing about there being a book with my name on it and it just never really goes away and hopefully you won't go away yeah and the worst things are probably the bits that aren't the actual writing so you know to the goodies to the the timeframes and publishing and you know trying to teach yourself not to read into silence anything like you learned that a fair bit when doing the query process yourself that silence doesn't necessarily mean anything that's not personal and yeah like probably the worst thing about it is is when you've got a sudden you've got sudden timeframes that aren't under your control and they conflict with things in in your regular life so then you feel like I feel like I'm failing at everything you know controlling my house and being bad at my day job and and you know not doing is going to Joe on their writing front as I could so yeah that's that's probably they're the worst it's kind of that impostor syndrome slash classic authors self-doubt and I came up with the term Andrew last last month than the other and the last lounge and it is you know the more and more I chat to authors because it's it is a very solitary job you know I mean like I say just sit in a room and write or even you know even if it's a coffee shop headphones in and writing and so yes the more and more you kind of break out those circles I think we find out we're not alone in terms of you know the emotions that we go through when you know the writing or we're not writing it's usually the one terminal it's just because the Internet's been so amazing for that because I didn't know I didn't know anybody in real life really who who did this and without the without the internet to build community and and meet people and make friends especially if this you know decidable mr. alien slight extra fancy community I should say is is really lovely and really welcoming in here you know we're just geographically even within a strata still won't spread out so far in the same country is somebody but you know stare and Perth in your in Canberra you never see the whole country so yeah being able to connect with with people I probably who said this was the first poem being a writer as well picking out people and and finding yeah that you're not alone and that even just being able to tweet some domed thought that you have about about how you're feeling and the immediate response from other people that they feel certain way just yeah I don't know how well I would have coped honestly I'm doing this if there wasn't that aspect because it is quite solitary and you know I do tend to be in my own head if I'm yeah if I'm alone like I'm one of five kids so I grew up in a very yeah I'm still close to all my siblings and there was just kind of always you know people around and I know I'm real I don't like being too isolated so you know if people are away and I'm quite in the house I will talk to my dogs I think that really helps being able to know that other people are doing the same sort of things to you and they you yeah you feel connected and you don't feel like your problems are insurmountable other people have got them as well very good point there I think I wholeheartedly agree that social media has been fantastic revelation for a lot of reasons but yeah in the author world and also even just connecting authors with readers so you can get that feedback a lot easier instead you know yeah I imagine back in the day you would only find out if you attended maybe a signing or an event or did a tour or something like that you'd only find out actually any good you know stuff like that so I think yeah it's been fantastic for that but from that perspective I think yeah longmate one way to continue what are your favourite dad are you a Twitter person or a facebook person do you have any sort of best Facebook groups that you find really useful I'm definitely a Twitter person I'm on Twitter on Twitter too much my phone you know if I have to use my computer to do it then I will inherently do it later it's just all the time and I have switched I have switched it so that I don't get notifications on my phone anymore right decision because otherwise my god I would just be there all of the time there's just something about like the constant constant string of new things and you know no matter what time of day it is there's somebody in the world up and talking and sharing and just get so much out of I know it's a bit of a false you know you get the sense of knowing people when you don't necessarily really know them but you just get to you get to go sense of people's personality and in particular I think it's an amazing thing for for really material like I get almost all of my recommendations two things to read by I know I like that's that's just how I know just really I love watching people be excited about books and talking about things that I care about and geeked out over and I know Twitter can be a assess paaswell largely my feed as people that I like it I don't like and and so it's largely a happy place like obviously when bad things are happening people are justifiably upset about them but I don't tend to find it a toxic kind of waste that's just a reflection of the other people on my timeline are generally decent decent people I do spend a bit of time on on Facebook as well and there's quite a few the fantasy rights bar and the groups I spend a good bit of time on there again through like book recommendations and just hanging out with people who love fantasy it's really fun and it's a good I found there's probably a different crowd of people who are on Twitter versus Facebook so obviously this is crossover but there's people who are only really only really managed to stay in touch with because they're on yes there are couple of things at Facebook I don't trust making groups in a way that you know tweet is just like a long string of information where it's bitter at kind of grouping things together and and being able to find things exactly it's actually know what something's past off the screen in Twitter all new season even if you try and find it yeah yeah exactly the same or just I saw this how the hell do I find that I did I get that with Facebook as well when the feed refreshes I just go back out to the page and Facebook thinks it's being helpful or Safari thinks is being held for that post is gone didn't see where I came from dammit lost into the ether alas so let's move on to kind of the more the publishing side of things because Doug into writing and then about the author life but I mean we've mostly had you know indie authors in there in the lounge up until now so you chat to Michael Sullivan who's both sides of the fence in terms of traditional and indie he's a hybrid or sir but let's chat about your your journey into publishing because you're a traditionally published author so yeah tell us a bit more about that journey and experience so I did probably like that the most kind of boring story difficult path into policy which is to say I didn't I didn't have any interesting outliers in my career no kind of connect as know anybody I've never been to conventions I didn't have basically any kind of fingers in the pie I just I just always bought it when I was first looking to query I kind of had I'd always wanted the idea of you know your book in the bookstore and they were probably publishers that that I read a lot of growing up where you kind of have this idea of like amazing being published by this person sort of think and so that was a sort of a faint guide but I'm a massive over-prepare so I still spent an obscene amount of time just you know researching publishing and agents and everything I'm not very good at any of the stuff that isn't just writing so submit never it never occurred to me to think about the indie path although that at the time that I was clearing probably it's like immense changing all that although a lot of people are quite different just it really year but yeah I'm not very good at anything that isn't just telling this talk telling the stories I never could really do anything other than traditional publishing when I was first looking at querying and though I knew I wanted an agent the same reason just because it's harder to get it publish it without one because that's not entirely true in Australia it's only about yeah it's about sorry about 60% of um published authors agent in Australia really more access directly to publishers here a lot a lot of very successful authors here don't have agents and it just got long-term relationship yeah yeah it's quite a difference between Australia and overseas but on the other hand we don't have a very healthy science fiction or fantasy or genre publishing yield here anymore so we had a really really strong period in the nineties the harbour Voyager Australia was really you know really investing in Australian fantasy and putting it and that was you know that was my teenage years I was watching all these amazing authors come up yeah good good news bro yeah and but that kind of all folded and I remember talking to an agent before I started querying she was that a seminar and she basically told me don't try to sell science fiction fantasy in Australia or like you want to go overseas she said it kills her but the markets it's not here for it now I think it was tied largely to the collapse of borders people would be buyers of books not being there driving that anyway so seasoned and I was going to need an agent so I you know did extensive research on querying and agents and then yeah the whole thing was a bit of a boring book standard story you know I chose an agent we did a lot of rewrites in their book and then she queried it and we got an offer so this probably like I got my agent in 2015 okay I know I'm on rewrites and started subbing it in 2016 us publishing deal in 2016 and then did more rewrites and then the the UK publishing deal came after the book was already kind of said all done and done so yeah it was it was two years between actually getting the deal and the book coming out yeah which yeah it's a big difference obviously which we need less under your control and sometimes inexplicably out it's a fun thing when you like you get to announce the deal in your life I'm gonna get published and then people like when the book coming out start counting down now kind of making an artistic product it's always going to be subjective so right because that's not really how art works yeah would you ever see yourself self-publishing in the future or is it just not your bag and all for you I don't know I mean I'm a bit useless stuff that goes around the writing so I don't know that I'm competent that's not that's again the great thing about this like you said it's changing every every year comes in new tools and new services new offerings what exactly publishing will look like in 5 or 10 years time it's too hard to say any guesses any wild kind of predictions I always find it interesting I think we might see I think we might see more in the kind of director audio arena because I think audible is directly acquiring books now which is quite interesting and obviously audiobooks has been a huge new area that people are selling a lot of books in and even I must I mean I'm I switched to using audio books that halfway through last year and that's how I've consumed the majority of my fiction since then just because I don't feel like listening to an audio book can be done at times where there's no alternative to be writing yeah yes I don't feel like I've got so much on my plate and if I've got time to read it probably have time to be writing yeah so you know you always have this kind of guilt thing I've got so many books to read and so many great books I want to read and books pens and books by authors I really love and I'm excited about that but fun at the time to actually balance it with the other things you have to do can be quite tricky whereas audiobooks listen to audiobooks on my way to work and I wasn't doing the dishes of dogs so it's a real and I think that's true for a lot of people you know somebody demands any time and anything that multitasks is gonna be appealing there's probably a lot in that area and I do wonder also whether there's gonna be more in the in the realm of kind of web serial type material like short short release short all these stories in a sort of a similar way to how you know TV is really where a lot of storytelling is happening now and in that see realized sort of sort of format so I do wonder whether we'll see a kind of exploration of the author's putting out stories bit by bit over time in a more sort of directly read away rolling dice no I think that's a way yeah I think it's really interesting because I mean see realized fiction is was you know huge back in the eighteen hundreds I mean that's how let's go say Charles Darwin versus not Charles Darwin Charles Dickens evolution based fantasy I think yeah that would be it'd be interesting to see the industry kind of you know starting from that way back in the birth of publishing and then come right back to you know 150 200 years later I'd be excited about that I mean we've got so many abilities I mean you know patreon is a great place to do that you know monthly content paid for creation that sort of thing that's a you know a growing platform for the moment so I think you're onto something there Sam I think you know I'm gonna put in my bets now Google stuff so let's move on to we'll move away from publishing writing and they're just a bit more about you cuz I understand you're a black belt in jujitsu correct yeah that was the hugely I wasn't that good any car team sports right growing up I was only good at weird things older brother I come from jujitsu family I should say my dad was introduced and my older brother who's five years older than me and we just used to like we always used to fight not you know not in a bad way I mean we went it's far that was just kind of a thing that we did we'd spar and wrestle and he so he did jujitsu from when he was I don't know in his early teens and I was story quite young but he needs to teach me stuff and showing me stuff and I was desperate desperate always so desperate to go and do it myself but I was so little and I come from a family of really tall people and I'm this sure so my older brother and sister would go to this jujitsu club same one that my dad had gone to it when he was younger and they were big enough to go to the the kind of seniors group but I was so small I would have to have grow into the genius class and my dad didn't want to have to drive me of the genius class and then go and pick them up and take them to the Seabees class so he basically said you can do this when you're tall enough to go so I continued just followed my brother and LAN party from him and we just used to we had a kind of he would come in the evening we would have a fight or a wrestle and then we would like watch Jackie Chan movies for a few hours and by the time I was kind of in my mid-teens I lost patience with my dad ever letting me actually do jiu-jitsu so I was like well I'm just gonna join their karate club and because get there myself and it's like so I cried for a few years and I actually met my husband at that karate club alright husband so we beat the crap out of each other that stage you know I was old enough to do what I wanted so i lured him over to the juicy code that I'd always wanted to do and and yeah we just we just really loved it so we stuck with it and we trained for our puppets together and now we teach claw Braille own together kids are in the genius class yeah which is fine so we've got two little two little fighters do they spar around the house now be the crap out of each other [Laughter] extremely gentle sweet little boys and they just really loved you don't you see it's a good fun good fun sport for them yeah like I'm just always really liked the sometimes my bio on martial art yeah I mean I expect like the either the fight scenes to be like perfect and choreographed like a John wick movie just to make things difficult for myself I you know I make my book focus on two point of view characters who are fighters so neither a particularly competent one's got a chronic illness and it's not physically competent that sort of thing at all neither of them are trained fighters so it was quite fun having to kind of craft fight scenes knowing that your character doesn't know what they're doing but still making them kind of work and and it's very fun but I mean I love our fighting badass character as much as anybody I just don't it's not the only kind of character I want to see explore in fiction but yeah I know do you think people sometimes might be disappointed that they see my fight it's not like you kind of loses a bit of realism I think in books and film especially or TV where that sort of yeah it's inexplicable powers and every bit of it something off about you know 25 years you you kind of have a pretty strong grasp on how much it takes to get good imagine yeah must be lethal I'll watch out for your world con them so let's just imagine them there is another Sam in an alternate universe and you know she's not she's not an author she didn't write would you have gone into another field what you reckon well I'm a lawyer in my day job oh so I think that's probably if I didn't have their creative side of things I would probably just just be being more and doing more of that all the time I said that I kind of became a lawyer by accident so it was my uncle or teacher or someone told me I ought to be embarrassed or when I was like you could alive or something and that was largely because I was loud and argumentative very clearly liked to talk and you know like to get into um get into issues and so that was kind of put in my head is are oh okay I'll be a lawyer and I went to law school but by the time I got to law school I'd already kind of determined that actually I didn't want to be a lawyer but it just still seemed like a sensible degree to have you know in terms of getting jobs having I studied Commerce or law and I just felt like a sensible way to have an easy path into a career um but yeah I think I just didn't Academy I didn't want to do court work or adversarial stuff at all because despite being a very argumentative teacher teenager I didn't end up being actually like confrontation in what people think about as as the law wasn't really anything they appealed to me so I was going to be you know I applied for the accounting firms I was going to be a tax accountant right yeah and I'd even in fact accepted a job as a tax accountant my den boyfriend and future husband and I had both accepted jobs in another part of the country and then we kind of changed our mind at the last minute like my grandma wasn't very well and I would have to leave my dog been fair on him to take him to take him to another place where we'd be working all the time whereas he was left here with my dad who's retired he's looking after the dog and moving around into patches of Sun padding and ended up taking jobs in camber instead and so the job that I hadn't really applied for that many jobs here and one of them was apps at the Commonwealth finance department basically having a finance degree and I remember when I went into the job interview they had a whole bunch of different people from different areas and I'm kind of talking about what they did and I think the way that these programs work is they just sort of pick the different areas pick the graduates that they that they want and I basically just got sorted into a legal area and I was like this which is in constitutional law and statutory interpretation is nothing like what I imagined when I was at university in thinking I don't want to be in court and I don't want to be involved in criminal oral contracts or anything and I'm not I basically my job basically consisted you know looking at very old complicated statutes and trying to work out what words being that's quite a good hand in hand almost yeah largely and so actually I really I really do love that work and if I wasn't a writer I'd probably still we doing that I think yeah I did briefly want to be a zookeeper you know I have no problem with scooping up – it was a short-lived dream because basically I found out it's extremely difficult to kidding zookeeper like people what those jobs really badly oh yes and also it would involve me being outside with my natural enemy the Sun yeah I feel that I just did you go white or red there's no in-between there was no brown it's very hot in some very cold we have very distinct seasons and yeah I can I can happily be outdoors winter as long as I'm worked up and I love autumn but spring I'm allergic to everything in front of a computer just doing the more thing than the made-up thing at least yeah at least you could be doing that by day and then the alternate Sam and an alternate universe could be sort of like a crime-fighting jiu-jitsu wielding lawyer by night it's almost very dead level so what's next for you sale then I'll see you've got you know the Halloween fire coming out you've got yeah what else is in the future well I mean I'm very focused on Halloween pirate and moment because I've got to get a draft um by the end of the year so that's that's my main focus and after that obviously as you know just writing the draft there's still a whole raft of things that you still have to do that point which I imagine will keep me busy you know up until the what comes out and then you actually I haven't I haven't really thought yet what I will do next I've got a few kind of things that were kicking around my head back after I've written the first one but before I whether I was gonna have sold it on that um so yeah it'll be it'll be fun and and weird I think Miss Universe for so long even if I only there's only one book but but in terms in terms of how much of my life it's taken up it's been a lot of time with these characters and this world so it will be a very interesting process to be confident it will be fantasy because it's really cool I'm really excited to see what comes from in the future then yeah and if people want to find out more about you and obviously want to keep in touch and you know praise you praise the books bring me the braised yeah where can we find you online as I said you can find me way too often on twitter at sample rights and same same operates at facebook as well all my website is sporadically updated mm well con I will be double milk on and I think we're flying and playing out in six weeks really side of things but ya know yeah that's it as long as you don't kind of like you never the mask hiding in the books or something I think we're good but yeah what happens in well son stays or work on okay so well thank you again so myself joining me in the author lounge taking time out your busy schedule to chat a little me and yeah good luck with the draft as I said and hopefully yeah can't you in a couple of weeks thank you so much thank you for having me it was great to check listen alright well have a good day then